Transcript – Episode 38

Fred Dunayer: Welcome to the Score Small Business Success podcast, Been There, Done That. To get free mentoring services, as well as to see the wide variety of resources available for small businesses visit our website at or call 1-800-634-0245. Now, here’s your host Dennis Zink.


Dennis Zink: Episode number 38: Communicating effectively in the workplace. Fred Dunayer joins me today in our studio as co-host, SCORE mentor, and our audio engineer. Good morning, Fred.


Fred Dunayer: Good morning, Dennis.


Dennis Zink: Fred, our guest today is Bob Parkinson. Bob Parkinson has served as a program host, writer, and producer of radio and several television shows for CBS, NBC, and other corporate clients. He has conducted more than 1,900 communication programs for business, government, and academia. In addition to publishing 12 business communication books, Bob’s column, Show and Tell, appears every Saturday in the business section of the Sarasota Herald Tribune. Bob served on the faculty of Northwestern University. He received his PhD from Syracuse University and his masters in management from Montclair State University. Bob, welcome again to Been There, Done That.


Bob Parkinson: Thank you, Dennis. I appreciate the introduction.


Dennis Zink: Bob, what are effective communications?


Bob Parkinson: What are effective communications? Basically, it’s making sure that the audience gets the message that you intended to give them. By that I mean we’ve got a lot of ideas and a lot of ways that we can deliver the information, but the real key factor is what’s in it for the audience? One of the keystone comments that we make is when you deliver a presentation, become your audience. When you’re writing a piece, become your reader. That way it will direct you in selecting the right kind of commentary, the right kind of vocabulary, the right kind of examples. Otherwise what you’re doing is writing or speaking for your own convenience rather than for the benefit of the person that’s receiving the message. You begin with who’s getting it.


Dennis Zink: There’s so much communication today in the workplace and personally with e-mails. Let’s talk about that for a moment. What constitutes a well written or a poorly written e-mail?


Bob Parkinson: It’s well written if the audience gets the message that you intended it to be, just as I said a moment ago. What happens very often is people use it as a catharsis. They just write something quickly without giving it a great deal of thought, without structuring the information, and they think, well, this is what I want to say. Back to my comment of a moment ago, what you have to put in is not what you want to say, it’s what the audience needs to hear. You switch the emphasis rather than from delivery, which is convenient for you, to reception, which is beneficial to the recipient. When you have the recipient in mind, regardless of what your medium is, chances are much better that you’re going to make the message clear and you’ll get the kind of results that you’re looking for.


Fred Dunayer: E-mail is a different medium than say face-to-face or telephone communications. Can you talk about how you have to adapt if you’re writing e-mail and what the differences are?


Bob Parkinson: The big difference between the e-mails and telephone for example is when you put it on an e-mail there’s no emphasis, there’s no pausing, there’s no increasing of volume or decreasing of volume. It’s just funny marks on a piece of paper or on a computer screen. You may intend something to be very clear but depending upon when the audience gets it, when the reader gets it, he or she may interpret it to be quite different. The packaging is completely different. For example Fred, a lot of people like to write in upper case letters so they type everything in upper case letters. Most people when they get an upper case letter e-mail it sounds like they’re shouting or they’re being shouted at. Don’t do that. It’s so simple. I don’t know anybody who’s that busy that he can’t hit a shift key on a keyboard to go from upper case to lower case.


I was in a coaching session a while back and somebody asked a question about upper case. I said essentially what I said just now, but then I said, “Why did you ask?” They said, “Well, Charlie over here,” who’s everybody’s boss, “Charlie does it all the time.” They used me as a vehicle to say to Charlie, “Don’t do that any more,” because he was shouting at them. Very bad idea. We’re dealing with content, but we’re dealing with packaging and delivery whether it’s e-mail or snail mail or face-to-face like this. We have to be sure that the way we construct and deliver the messages is going to be appropriate and accurate and on the mark for the person getting it.


Dennis Zink: How about the length of an e-mail? I’ll give an example. I have some people that write very, very, very long e-mails. In fact, one person sends me 4 or 5 something page e-mails which I just don’t have any interest in reading something that long. My e-mails tend to be very short and to the point. Maybe cause both you and I are writers, members of the 4th estate, that we write short and sweet. Comment on the length of e-mails.


Bob Parkinson: I wouldn’t give you a word count because that’s impossible to do, but short. An e-mail, particularly I think if we’re looking at a screen, that’s enough to get people’s attention. If you need more then you set it up as an attachment so they can go someplace else, but they’ll get the body of the content in one, maybe outside two screens, but one screen is far better.


Fred Dunayer: There’s actually an expression that’s used in the Internet forums TL;DR and it stands for too long; didn’t read.


Dennis Zink: I love that.


Fred Dunayer: You’ll see that occasionally in postings where somebody has put something long winded and next comment will be TL;DR and ask for a summary because it’s just too much detail.


Bob Parkinson: You know, it applies not only with e-mail, but it applies to typing something. We get very involved very often saying almost everything I know to put it on paper. Part of that is to cover our own problems. The reason for most of us to do that is we just want to say everything that we know. The better way to do that is to just say what you want to say and if you need more information you go to the addendum. Then the reader has the option of making the choice.


Fred Dunayer: Right.


Dennis Zink: Another thing with e-mails is sometimes you’re upset about something and you write it and you’re angry. My rule of thumb is to never send out an e-mail or a letter or a text when you’re angry. Maybe sleep on it and see do you really want to send this? Once you hit send, that’s it. In the legal practice they call e-mail, evidence mail.


Bob Parkinson: That applies also to anything you type in for snail mail or for a report. Don’t send it if there’s emotion attached. Step back.


Fred Dunayer: Just to reinforce something that you said about knowing your audience and reading it like your audience, last week, I guess it was last week, we talked about personality types. There’s a certain sensitivity you should have to the personality type of the person you’re speaking to. Obviously if it’s a one to many e-mail it could become a different situation, but when you’re communicating specifically with an individual you should be tuning that conversation to that individual’s type.


Bob Parkinson: On top of that, Fred, is this good news or bad news? How is the person going to respond to the message that you’re sending? If you’re telling them they just won the lottery, they don’t care how you say that, but if you tell them that we’re going to move the corporate headquarters to Reno, they may be upset if they just bought a house in Sarasota.


Dennis Zink: Also, people use reply all too frequently. Someone sends an e-mail and they send it to 20 people and they don’t necessarily expect you to respond to all 20 people. Can you comment on reply all, versus reply?


Bob Parkinson: Yes. Don’t do it because it’s just a waste of time. All of those people aren’t going to read it. Number 1, the reason a lot of people do that is just to make sure that everybody knows how smart I am and I’m sending something out. Far better just send it to … I never … Well, I shouldn’t say that. I can’t recall a time that I’ve responded to everybody that was listed on a sheet.


Dennis Zink: Sometimes it actually could make sense. For example, let’s say I send a … We have a meeting, and I say I want to know everyone that’s going or I want all of your thoughts on an item and I kind of want everybody to know what everybody’s saying. There are some instances where it could make sense.


Bob Parkinson: It could. Let me give you one of my favorite mottos. If there’s a good reason to do that, then you do it. My motto is this: Whatever you do, do it on purpose. The example that you just used is a good example of sometimes it’s necessary to do that. Many times people just respond because they want the whole world to know that they responded. They’re really not saying anything significant. Be specific.


Dennis Zink: What about texting? That’s a big thing today, especially with millennials. You’re limited to the characters. If you could comment on texting.


Bob Parkinson: Sure, texting is more convenient for the sender and it may or may not be convenient for the person that’s getting it. When you condense something to 140 characters you’re going to lose nuance, you’re going to lose detail, you’re going to lose the emotion in it, you’re going to lose … You’re sacrificing something. Now, if you just have to say yup or nope, fine. That’ll work, but I think we’ve gotten into the habit of just texting material because it’s convenient for the person who’s sending it.


Here’s an example. We had guests visiting our house not too long ago. They were staying a 5 minute drive from our house. They got in the car, and they were millennials here, they got in the car to come over to our house and they were going to be delayed for a few minutes beyond the accepted time and they texted us that instead of calling us. We’re not sitting around waiting for something to show up on our telephone to respond to a text. They use it because it’s convenient to them, not necessarily beneficial to the recipient. There’s my big problem and it goes right back to the basis of communication. Why are you doing it? Is it comfortable for you or good for the person to whom you’re sending it?


Dennis Zink: Well, my son texted me yesterday and it was back and forth, back and forth. I said, “Robby, just call me.” He didn’t call. He just texted me back. That’s what he’s used to doing. He’s that age.


Bob Parkinson: Yeah, I got an e-mail not too long ago from a former colleague at Northwestern and he used to do this to me quite often. 9 o’clock in the morning I would get a phone call from him and he would say, “This is Jack.” I would say, “Okay, what do you need, Jack?” He said, “Did you get my e-mail?” I said, “No, I’ve been doing something else. It’s only 9 o’clock in the morning.” “Well, I sent it about 20 minutes ago.” Then I said to him, “What did you say?” Now, you see, when he told me what he said I didn’t have to read his e-mail anymore because I already got the message. It was his convenience and habit that he just did that rather than … Thinking that I was sitting staring at the computer screen waiting for something to come and then to send it. Many students would do that also thinking that the professors were sitting at their computers just waiting for something to come in.


Fred Dunayer: Well, Bob, I think you might be fighting a losing battle, because it really …


Bob Parkinson: With what, Fred?


Fred Dunayer: With texting versus phone calling because apparently people just do not like to call on the phone. I think there’s some element of it that feels like they’re interrupting people’s stream of thought. If you call them you’re actually interpreting them, versus if you send them a text they can reply on their own schedule. I think that the millennials … I don’t want to pick on millennials because a lot of us also do it … Are actually trying to think of our recipients when we send a text instead of calling.


Bob Parkinson: You may be right, Fred. I don’t see that as a battle. I’m not worried about losing the battle. What we’re talking about is what’s most effective. You’re dealing with different audiences and if you know that an audience is going to respond to that, then that’s your choice. That’s why it becomes important for all of us, regardless of the age here, to understand what the different media can do. There are strengths and weaknesses to all of them. They’re not all equally likely as far as responses are concerned, so do it on purpose. There’s my line again.


Dennis Zink: E-mails, texting, what have you, reading a letter, we’re talking about using your eyes to get the message. Let’s add the senses of vision and sound. Now you go to either using a phone, as Fred mentioned before, or person to person, so you have both visual and audio cues. Granted, you could use Skype and kind of have video cues as well as the audio over a line. I don’t know if it’s quite the same. If you could comment on using other sensory modes and how that helps in communications.


Bob Parkinson: Let me quote a study that was done at UCLA many, many years ago. It was referred to as the Mehrabian Study, Alfred Mehrabian was the professor. What they were looking for is what has the greatest impact on an audience. They put a lot of people through a lot of activities, plotted out what the responses were, and they put the information in a pie graph. About 55% of the impact that we have on an audience comes from how we look. About 38% of the impact comes from how we sound. You do the arithmetic, 7% is the content. That doesn’t mean content is unimportant.


What it does say is you better be cognizant of how you look, how you stand, not Hollywood handsome or Broadway beautiful, not that stuff, but how you look. How you’re sitting, how you’re standing, how you’re moving, how you’re navigating the room, how you’re interacting with audiences because before you say word one, audience makes a judgment. I want to listen to this person, or he doesn’t look very comfortable, or she looks very comfortable and enthusiastic. You’ll hear people say, “He didn’t seem to be on his game tonight,” or, “He seemed a little bit off his meter.” Well, that’s the delivery, not the content. We have to pay attention to that because you can say wonderful things, but if you don’t say them well that’s what the audience is going to remember.


Dennis Zink Bob, why do so many people do a poor job communicating?


Bob Parkinson: Probably because they don’t know they’re doing a poor job. They think they’re doing a good job. In fact, we do a program which we have entitled be as good as you think you are. Secondly, because they think they’re good, they resist getting instruction. They don’t want to have somebody look at them and say something like, “Stand up straight,” or, “Use your hands,” or, “Look me in the eye.” They resist the coaching. We are bad judgers of our own behaviors. We need somebody to tell us what we’re doing. Like any coach does in any kind of physical activities, basketball, baseball, doesn’t make any difference. Somebody’s going to tell you what’s going to work, but people resist the opportunity to do that. Then what happens is they do it that way, whatever that way is, they do it again and again and again and again and becomes even more comfortable as time goes on.


You know that old expression practice makes perfect? That’s not so. You’ve practiced doing something the wrong way, it never gets good, it just feels better and comfortable doing it the wrong way. It’s hard to break those old habits. Whereas if you avail yourself of somebody who can be a coach, like the guest recently, a good coach, he’ll tell you what’s going to work and what’s not going to work and you have to take the coach. I used to live in Chicago and one of the great models that we use for performance was Michael Jordan is a great basketball, perhaps the greatest basketball player. Michael was the first guy at practice every day and the last guy to leave practice every day. Basketball, by definition, is a simple game. Nothing complicated about it. Run, pass, shoot, and that’s about it, but just depends upon how you do that. You need to be coached. You need to be guided. You need to have options. Not just do it the same way all the time cause it just doesn’t work.


Dennis Zink: Isn’t the saying perfect practice makes perfect?


Bob Parkinson: No, makes permanent. Practice makes … The saying is practice makes perfect, but that’s wrong.


Dennis Zink: No, perfect practice makes perfect so that you don’t practice wrong.


Bob Parkinson: That gets kind of complicated. I find it much more informative to simply say practice makes permanent because then whatever it is you’re doing …


Fred Dunayer: You’ve seen my golf game obviously.


Bob Parkinson: That’s another great example, Fred. Golf is a simple game. You hit a little ball into a little hole. There’s nothing complicated about describing the game. It’s the execution that’s the problem. There’s nothing complicated about delivering a sentence. It’s the execution that becomes important.


We use … Again, for perfection for examples, we were working with a group a while back and we were talking about the physical skills and how to do things well and how to practice. One of the men in the group just dug in his heels and he said, “You’re trying to turn me into an actor. I’m not an actor. I’m a businessman, not an actor.” We said, “Well, okay. Let’s talk about that.” Actors work very hard at becoming somebody else. We’re talking about business people working hard at being better at being good business people. There are some differences there.


However, if you look at the actor, what tools does the actor have? He has 2 tools. He has a script and he has a body. What tools does the business person have? He has a script. We may call it notes or PowerPoint or something like that, but he has a script and he has a body. What makes a good actor? Is it the words, the script? If it was just the words, then anybody in this room and all of us right now we could be accomplished Shakespearean actors because we all have access to the words. What makes a good actor is the interpretation, the packaging and delivery of the words. Same thing with the business person. How is it packaged and how is it delivered?


Fred Dunayer: Well, and a great example is Steve Jobs. He wasn’t an actor, but he got up on that stage, he took command of the stage, and he communicated his business process and his products and everything else in a very stylistic, important way. It was very effective.


Bob Parkinson: Absolutely. If you look at any of the TED speeches you see the same kind of performance there. First of all, it’s the image. When Steve Jobs walked on to the stage instantaneously people paid attention to him. Part of that was the dress and the demeanor, but then he had something to say and he delivered it well. If somebody just dresses up like Steve Jobs and walks out on the stage, he’s not going to get the same response, necessarily. If we think about how and why Jobs did what he did we can see our own persona, our own image, our own passion. The passion word is an excellent word.


We had a man one time who he was the president of the company and he said, “Anybody that works for me, when he’s giving a presentation anywhere, I want to see the passion. I want to experience the passion,” then he leaned forward just a little bit and he said, “Because nobody messes with passionate people.” When there’s passion, and that’s not in your face, it’s conviction. It’s presence. That’s the better word in business these days. It’s the presence. What are you communicating as soon as you walk into that room? That’s important.


Fred Dunayer: Bob, you mentioned PowerPoint. It’s real popular to diss PowerPoint right now. You see everybody saying, “Oh, I wouldn’t use PowerPoint. I don’t use PowerPoint.” I think they’re talking about some aspect of it because it’s just a tool like anything else. Do you have some thoughts on best practices when using PowerPoint in a presentation?


Bob Parkinson: Yes, I do. Number one, when you’ve been assigned to give a presentation what happens to a lot of people is they immediately begin to think, “I’ve got to do a PowerPoint. I have to start making my slides.” Bad idea. The decision to use PowerPoint or any vehicle is the last thing you do. You figure out who your audience, what your message is, how you best can construct that, and then how am I going to deliver this thing. PowerPoint might be wonderful, but I don’t want to leave my presentation up to the decision that some guy made years ago when he was working for Microsoft and he laid out how PowerPoint was going to function. I want to make the decisions. It can be a very powerful tool, but it can be a constraint also.


Take it one step further, not only with the PowerPoint itself, but with the use of templates. A lot of organizations require templates for consistency. Now again, here’s this do it on purpose that we talked about before. A template is constraining. It means you have to fit your content into a package rather than letting the package form on the basis of the content. PowerPoint can be terrific, but it can be a burden.


I worked with a man a while back, high tech engineer aerospace company. He had a marvelous presentation worked out on PowerPoint, very elaborate, talking about energy consumption and so on. Irony, about 5 seconds after he started his presentation his computer died and he just looked at the blank stare and then he said, “Let me try something else.” He walked over, pulled the flip chart away from the corner and got a marker and drew a very simple graph on the chart. He gave the presentation. It was dynamic. It was dynamite. Same content that he had for the PowerPoint. When he was finished he said, “I’ve never done that that well. That’s the best presentation I’ve ever given.” Everybody in the room understood it because he made it clear to … He did it for the audience not just for himself.


Dennis Zink: Yeah, I think a big problem with PowerPoint is when you use it as a crutch. When you have so many words per slide and you read it … That’s just awful I think. I can see if you want to give hand outs and you want the information there. In a way that makes sense to give more information as opposed to less, but otherwise I think it should just be an idea, a thought. It could be a graphic, it could be some kind of a photograph or image that gets the point across maybe with a couple of words and then you should be the show. You should be where the audience is focusing.


Bob Parkinson: Absolutely, Dennis, and a way to do that, you mentioned hand-outs. Hand-outs have a lot of information and that’s what the value is. You can give them to people and they can read it on their own, after the meeting. If you try to squeeze everything in a hand-out on to a PowerPoint what happens is by definition your font gets smaller and smaller and smaller cause you’re squeezing more stuff there and it gets to the point nobody can read it anyway, so what a waste. Here’s something where the PowerPoint mechanism can be helpful. You’ve got the speaker note capabilities with PowerPoint. You can design the material, have 2 or 3 words on the visual or graphs or charts, whatever it’s going to be, and then if you need more details for hand out or leave piece put it on the speaker notes. It’s not going to be up on the screen, but it’s going to be available to the audience.


The whole thing here is what’s going to be of benefit to the audience, not convenience and ease for me as the presenter, what’s going to work for them. We talk about the differences between presentation visuals and hand-outs this way. Think of them as being cousins, not identical twins. There’s a similarity in the content, but they look very different and they’re designed for different purposes. They both work, it’s like back to the texting versus e-mail or versus the telephone. You use the medium as the vehicle that’s going to most effectively send the information out for you.


Fred Dunayer: I think it’s important to recognize, and I think you may have said that in one way or another, the PowerPoint presentation is a distraction from the speaker. You may be willing to do that for the sake of providing some information or putting up a graphic that gets attention, but do it on purpose.


Bob Parkinson: Exactly, Fred. Thank you for using that line. Another thing to think about, I mentioned earlier in the discussion, we talk about talking to a person and talking to a person. When an audience is in a room, they want the speaker to talk to them. What happens when somebody has a PowerPoint up on the screen? They turn around and talk to the screen and not to the audience. It’s disrespecting the audience. It affects the volume. It affects the dynamic. It affects the gesturing. It’s always a negative. Now if you need somebody to see a picture, put the picture up, give them a moment. Invite them. Say, “Take a look at this for a moment.”


Dennis Zink: What I’ve done I’ve found that works, if I was using a PowerPoint, and again I try to use minimal words with graphics and even some sound sometimes is pretty good, but what I’ll do is I’ll have a second monitor that I’m looking that’s in front of me so I don’t have to turn around at all.


Bob Parkinson: Okay, I have a comment about that.


Dennis Zink: Go ahead.


Bob Parkinson: If I were coaching you in a session I would say, “Don’t do that,” because what happens, it’s like having your notes and you start reading your notes instead of talking to your audience. Have it there. Glance at it. Remind yourself what it is, but if I’m looking at the monitor in the front of the room and I’m trying to point or direct an audience to something that’s behind me I’m going to get out of sync. I’m going to be out of the way. Again, do it on purpose, that line. There’s not one way to do anything. We get ourselves into trouble if we become too provincial like that, but do it on purpose.


Dennis Zink: Just for clarification I’m talking about slides that have very few words that have a graphic and it’s just cuing me what the next one is that they’re looking at. I’m not staring at it, but I can see your point if I was that wouldn’t be a good thing.


Bob Parkinson: Yeah, because now you’re talking to the wrong thing. You’re not talking to the audience.


Dennis Zink: Bob, what advice can you give for improving customer service in general?


Bob Parkinson: Recognize that the customer is the reason you’re in business. If it wasn’t for the customer your business disappears. They’re the people with the money. They’re the people that are making a decision to buy whatever it is that you’re selling. Now, those 2 words become very significant here. In many business situations, many sales situations, the focus is on selling stuff. That’s the wrong focus. Focus should be on how do I get somebody to buy this product, this service?


There’s an interesting study done a few years ago about how buyers and sellers perform. The question was what bothers you most about sales people? The buyer’s answer was they talk too much. Everybody thought that’s a good answer. They asked the same question to the sales people and the sales people said, “We talk too much.” Here’s the disconnect. If all the parties know they talk too much, what’s the fix? Stop talking. What do you do instead? Ask questions. Find out what the customer wants and needs. That’s the key. I use as an example, if I were a pen salesmen and I came into your office I could talk for 45 minutes about the qualities of this pen cause I know all of these things. If I haven’t taken the time to find out that what you need is something you can erase, you’re not going to buy my pen. Ask the question.


Marshall Field, the great salesman in Chicago years and years ago, had a very simple customer service line, “Get the lady what she wants.” Tom Peters picked up on that and said, “Find out what the customer wants and give it to them.” It’s all about the customer. You be nice. Now, let me give you another example of people who intended to be nice, but it backfires. I won’t mention the name of the bank, but there’s a big chain of banks and they’ve redesigned a lot of their branch offices. What happens is as soon as you walk into the branch office, the door has not even closed behind you, 2 or 3 people have pounced on you. How can I help you? I don’t want to be pounced on when I walk into a place. I want to be acknowledged, but I don’t want to be pounced on. Give me some time.


There’s another company talks about 10-10. Within 10 seconds after I enter the store or the place or the office and within 10 feet, acknowledge me. Don’t try to sell me something. Don’t jump all over the place. A nod, a comment, I’ll be with you in a moment, thank you, that’s fine. Acknowledge me. Don’t try to sell me something immediately. Find out what I want.


Fred Dunayer: If you’ve been in a commission based furniture store recently I’m sure you’ve had that same experience. I did and it actually drove us out of the store.


Bob Parkinson: Exactly, exactly. I walked into one of these bank branches that I mentioned before. It was quite right with the furniture store. Walked into the bank and this guy starts to say, “What brought you here to this town?” He wanted to make a conversation. I said to him, cause I was busy thinking about something else, I said, “I didn’t come here to make a new friend and to engage in conversation. I came here for a transaction. That’s what I want to do.” Then he backed off. See, they think that’s good. They’ve taken it too far. They’ve taken the excellent model about acknowledgement and they’ve overdone it.


Fred Dunayer: Bob, we could probably go on for hours on this subject because it’s fascinating and there’s a lot of depth to it, but we are limited in time. Is there anything that we didn’t cover in this conversation that you would like to mention or is there something you really want to emphasize before we close out?


Bob Parkinson: I would like to take the emphasis line. The emphasis line is simply this, it goes back to my whatever you do, do it on purpose. Structure all the messages, regardless of what the medium is that you’re using, structure the messages so they’re appropriate and beneficial for the persons that you’re delivering it to, not just convenient for you. If those become the role models, then the effectiveness of the communication is going to be much higher. Also recognize you’re delivering a total package, not just the words, back to my actor story, it’s not just the words, it’s the packaging and the delivery of the words. We focus on those, we’re going to do a much better job because we know the material. The whole idea, if we didn’t know it we wouldn’t be on the platform or writing the piece. If we didn’t know it we wouldn’t be there so use the vehicle, whatever it happens to be, to deliver the clear message.


Dennis Zink: Bob, thanks for being our guest today on Been There, Done That and enlightening our audience on communicating effectively in the workplace.


Bob Parkinson: Thanks Dennis, it was nice to be here. Fred, thank you for your questions and for your help too.


Fred Dunayer: Thanks, Bob. Appreciate it.


Bob Parkinson: Thank you.


Fred Dunayer: You’ve been listening to the SCORE Small Business Success podcast, Been There, Done That. The opinions of the hosts and guests are theirs and do not necessarily reflect those of SCORE. If you would like to hear more podcasts, get a free mentor, view a transcript of this podcast, or would like more information about the services we provide you can call SCORE at 800-634-0245 or visit our website at Again, that’s 800-634-0245 or visit the website at



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